posted August 09, 2001 10:03 PM       

What a fun thread!!!

I have an extensive collection of Superman and Action Comics going back to the early 60's... This thread has got me going back and re-reading read some of those old stories...

My, my what a different world...

They are pure fun and what Super-hero comics were all about...

You guy's are some great fan's!!!

Thanks for the memories!!!

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"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself... A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself..." D.H. Lawrence

posted August 09, 2001 11:51 PM    

Some day I will list all of those stories, but since that's quite a big project, it'll have to wait for a while.

posted August 10, 2001 01:42 PM    

I guess the Super-Sons concept evolved over time. In Action 391-92, Superman's wife has blonde hair. Unless this is a colorist's error, that would suggest he married someone other than Lois or Lana (someone more like Lyla Lerol?).

I would welcome any comments from you or others on the early 70s Jimmy, Lois, Supergirl (in Adventure), and WF stories. Whereas I have a good amount of the Superman & Action stuff from the early seventies, my collection of these others is sporadic at best. From about 74 onward (into the eighties) I was pretty much a Superman completist, getting every comic that had anything to do with him. But before '74 (before I was earning money as a paperboy), I had to be more selective. While I've managed over the years to find some of these treasures, I'm far away from getting a comprehensive collection together.

And so, I wouldn't presume to comment on those other titles.

posted August 13, 2001 06:59 PM    

I kinda like silly stories, and whenever Robert Kanigher writes about women he seems to get into a lot of silliness.

From the few 70s LL comics that I've acquired, I know that I would like them--any of them--despite the bad inking.

Of course sixties Lois was perfect--by Schaffenberger, and I would guess scripted by Otto Binder and Leo Dorfman. If there isn't an archive soon, I may have to start putting together a SGFLL collection.

As a kid in the sixties I had to spread my money thin, to get a taste of everything--so I only bought a few issues of LL, but I loved them.

I remember one where Lois and Lana go into the bottle city of Kandor. They look so cute in those Kandorian mini-skirts.

And then there was another one--one that gave me nightmares--where Lois took the place of this old dead banana republic dictator woman.

Sixties LL comics were like stories of Veronica and Betty but in their twenties--but was Lois the Betty and Lana the Ronnie, or the other way around?

posted August 18, 2001 08:48 AM       

In issue 111, "The Dark Side of the Justice League" by Kanigher, Roth, and Colletta, there is an appearance by Simyan and Mokkari, 2 of Darkseid's followers who run the "Evil Factory", introduced just a couple of months earlier by Kirby in Jimmy Olsen. In this story, they create miniature clones out of the entire Justice League!

Issue 115, "My Death - By Lois Lane", by the same creative team, features an appearance by the enigmatic Black Racer, another Kirby creation fresh from his first appearance in New Gods.

In issue 116, "Hall of 1000 Mirrors", again by Kanigher/Roth/Colletta, Darkseid himself appears, in a story featuring DeSaad and his twisted amusement park "Happyland", a Kirby creation that had appeared in Forever People.

In issue 118, the same team brings us "Edge of Darkness", where it is revealed that Morgan Edge, the head of Galaxy Broadcasting introduced by Kirby in Jimmy Olsen about a year earlier, is actually an evil clone created by the Evil Factory! The real Morgan Edge, which has been held captive all this time, escapes his prison.

This story-line continues in issue 119, with the evil clone still on the trail of the real Morgan Edge in the story "Inside the Outsiders"

Finally, the loose ends are resolved in Jimmy Olsen 152, by another creative team comprised of E. Nelson Bridwell, Steve Skeates, Mike Sekowsky, and Bob Oskner, in a story entitled "The Double-Edged Sword".

posted August 18, 2001 04:40 PM       

The "real" Morgan Edge first shows up as a shadowy figure in Superman 241 - "The Shape of Fear", the penultimate chapter of the Sandman Saga, a Denny O'Neil/Swanderson story. He also showed up briefly in Superman 244's "Electronic Ghost of Metropolis", by the same team.

posted August 19, 2001 09:10 PM       

It seems like Superman in the early '70s was a patchwork of multiple personalities, due to having 4 editors in 5 different magazines.

For example, during 1971, the Sandman Saga was entirely confined to Superman's own magazine, with nary a reference to it in Action Comics, where the Man of Steel was as powerful as ever. Kirby was doing his own thing over in Jimmy Olsen, even including kryptonite in the "Evil Factory" story, months after it had been transformed to iron over in Superman.

posted November 08, 2001 01:42 AM    

This is so sad. His work was of stunning beauty.

The first time I encountered his art was in that Kryp and Tonn story (Tales of Krypton) in the back of Superman--during the Sandman Saga.

And as thoughts tumble together, it occurs to me that a collected volume of those Tales of Krypton would be a fine idea (with a fold-out of the Krypton map).

posted November 23, 2001 08:50 PM       

And India, if you're listening, way early on in this thread, you asked about the beef against Terra-Man. I find TerraMan to be fairly ludicrous because he's just a cowboy on Pegasus. The most menacing thing about him is the fact that he probably listens to country-western music.

(And it should be noted that despite any complaining I do about Silver Age stories, I seem to read them whenever I can.)

------------------
Homer: My ears are burning...

Marge: Oh Homer, we weren't even talking about you.

posted November 24, 2001 06:57 AM       

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES
http://racerxband.com/

posted November 24, 2001 05:29 PM    

Terra Man I loved for a lot of reasons--as I think I already said--his origin (at least for the times) was quite novel and characters are usually only as good as their origin stories. Read the Dillin/Adams/Bates story and then get back to me.

posted November 24, 2001 05:55 PM       

Here's another question: How did the pre-crisis Superman meet Mongul?

------------------
Homer: My ears are burning...

Marge: Oh Homer, we weren't even talking about you.

posted November 24, 2001 06:25 PM       

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES
http://racerxband.com/

posted November 24, 2001 07:12 PM       

New question: In Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow one of the villains that come after Supes is a guy named "Krytonite Man." What is the deal with that guy? I hadn't heard of him prior to reading that story.

------------------
"Ladies and gentlemen, er, we've just lost the
picture, but, uh, what we've seen speaks for itself. The Corvair spacecraft has been taken over -- "conquered," if you will
-- by a master race of giant space ants. It's difficult to tell from
this vantage point whether they will consume the captive earthmen or
merely enslave them. One thing is for certain, there is no stopping
them; the ants will soon be here. [Suddenly genial] And I, for one, welcome our new
insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted TV
personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their
underground sugar caves."

posted November 24, 2001 10:38 PM       

------------------
"All right, nobody move! I've got a Dragon here and I'm not afraid to use it! I'm a DONKEY ON THE EDGE!"

posted November 25, 2001 03:12 PM       

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES
http://racerxband.com/

posted November 25, 2001 03:17 PM       

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES
http://racerxband.com/

posted November 25, 2001 03:25 PM    

That's how I feel about Terra Man--I wouldn't want to overblow his merits, but for situational plots he was better than most. And it was the seventies--the clothes were wierd and tasteless.

The way I see it, through my unscientific survey, Superman had/has five types of villains:
1) The megalomaniac out to conquer the world or the universe--eg. Luthor, Brainiac, Ultra-Humanite, Graax, Mongul,...
2) The monster, a pathetic creation of some sort with great power--eg. Bizarro, the Galactic Golem, Doomsday, the sand creature, Solomon Grundy, Metallo...
3) The pest, who usually doesn't present a real threat but just a lot of wierdness--eg. Mr. Mxyzptlk, Ambush Bug, and sort of Bizarro, The Prankster, and Toyman.
4) The gansters--essentially crooks in plain clothes who don't do much but the rather routine ganster type stuff--harassing citizens, robbing banks--eg. most of the villains on the Adventures of Superman TV show or the members of Intergang and the One Hundred.
5) The minor league costumed villain--eg. Terra Man, Black Rock, The Atomic Skull, Metallo (sort of)...

When Schwartz came along the first four were well represented but not the fifth--except maybe in World's Finest stories where the costumed villains presented a challenge to Batman and Robin.

Schwartz had his writers introduce a lot of these costumed villains--and most didn't take off, but a few like Terra Man did. The virtue of these villains over three of the other four is in their minor league status. They aren't wierd or monstrous, but neither are they out for major conquest. When Superman takes on majorly powerful monsters, pests, and megalomaniacs the image of Superman as TOO powerful is put before the readership. But if we see him in a battle of wits with fairly ordinary costumed villains we forget about Superman's power level. Thus these minor league villains helped to downplay the just too powerful image of Superman.

posted November 25, 2001 03:54 PM    

The first story, "To Live in Peace--Nevermore!" (Paul Levitz writer, Dick Dillin & Dick Giordano artists) has the Legion intervene against Superman's attempts to stop Nyrvn making war. The LSH (Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, Dawnstar, and Sun Boy) tell Superman that the Nyrvn made war for one thousand years with their interplanetary neighbours, but when the entire galaxy was attacked by an enemy from beyond an alliance was formed with Nyrvn and our galaxy won the war bringing about the age of peace in which the LSH were formed. Had Nyrvn not made war for a thousand years, they would not have developed the level of weaponry that enabled our galaxy to defeat the enemy from beyond.

Following this encounter with the Legion, Jonathan Ross is kidnapped by the Nyrvnians, and Pete Ross comes to Clark (revealing his secret knowledge of Superman's true identity) demanding that he rescue Jonathan. Jon meanwhile expects his friend Superman (in a previous story the little boy found out Superman's true identity and formed a friendship with the Man of Steel) to arrive at any moment and save him, but the Legion appear and inform him that his destiny is to become a great Nyrvnian warrior. Superman does make an attempt to save his young friend, but is defeated by the stellar beams of the Nyrvnian warships.

And so the Man of Steel surrenders to destiny, but he does change history slightly by using his robots and advanced technology to create a full-scale computer war game that continually diverts and challenges Nyrvn while not threatening any other planets.

Pete Ross aint happy. And at the end of the story (in one of those good Dillin close-ups) he says to his lifelong friend, "By God, I swear you'll pay!"

Which leads into "Judge, Jury...and no Justice!" (by the same creative team, and reprinted in Superman in the Seventies). A story that has Ross suddenly accumulating enough wealth to become a megalomaniacal genius bent on the absolute destruction of Superman, both mentally and physically, as Ross puts his mind inside a time kidnapped Superboy, abducts Superman's friend (all except Clark), uses krytonite chains (though being in Superboy's body), and so on.

posted November 25, 2001 04:25 PM    

In these two stories Levitz asks us as readers to make several leaps--and I don't want to leap.

I don't accept that Superman would so easily give up on Nyrvn or Jon Ross. That's not the Superman we knew back then. Nor would he let down Pete Ross. Superman would give up his life for his friend sooner than let Jon grow up without his parents.

The Legion are treated as mere toys to drive the plot along. In one fell swoop Levitz changes twenty years of continuity (undermining the whole Clark/Pete relationship). And it's all done more for shock value than for deeply motivated characterization.

Between issues 13 & 14, Pete manages to remake himself into a powerful super-villain capable of transporting the Boy of Steel through time, able to get his hands on Green K chains (hey wasn't all that Kryptonite turned to iron--I guess this stuff came from outer space), puts Superman's friends into a floating pod vehicle, does a handy dandy mind transfer. You'd almost think Pete spent his spare time when not helping out Superboy dreaming up schemes of how he could get revenge on his old pal if he ever felt the need to get revenge on his old pal.

And there are so many holes in the plot, I find it hard to believe Levitz put much thought into it.

But in his defense he did respond to readers concerns over Jon's kidnapping (DCCP 13) in the lettercol of DCCP 18. He goes on at great length, but here's some of what he wrote:

...As for my opinions, please don't confuse them with those of the characters. I neither condone nor condemn what any of them have done, and the same goes for the end result. Without debating minor points like Pete's reaction to the kidnapping, I think I did show that Superman's ultimate goal was the protection of Jon Ross. He failed in fulfilling his task completely because even with all the power, inclination, intelligence, and luck in the universe--you can't win all the time. It's all the more painful a hurt when you lose one so important to you...

For the record, the Comics Code read #13 in its entirety, prior to granting their seal of approval. I assume from this that they too felt that Superman's attitudes represented the positive outlook on family life they demand, and the desire for justice. But what would just punishment have been? The imprisonment of the entire world of Nyrvn? And in the end, what profit accrued to Nyrvn--or anyone on it? Unless you want to consider the fact that it prompted Superman to end their wars.

Finally let me just say that the story isn't over yet. Both editor Julie and I had a sequel in mind even before publication, and your letters have persuaded us that it's more than desirable, almost obligatory. I haven't plotted the story yet, so I can't say whether Jon will come home to Earth, or Superman and Pete be reconciled. I do know that if it's a good story, it'll make at least some of you reconsider your judgements.